US official, James Rubin: China spends billions of dollars on disinformation

2023-06-10 19:05:32, Kosova & Bota CNA

James Rubin

James Rubin, the coordinator of the Center for Global Engagement at the State Department, a center that leads US efforts abroad, against disinformation, says that China and Russia are campaigning hard in this direction, all over the world. One of the regions that has often been the target of disinformation is the Balkans. During an interview with Voice of America's Nike Ching, Mr. Rubin dwells on Washington's efforts to ensure what he called information integrity in the Balkan region, which, like territorial integrity, he said, should not be compromised.

The Center for Global Engagement at the Department of State was created to direct the US government's efforts in exposing and countering foreign disinformation propaganda, state or otherwise, aimed at undermining the stability of the United States and its allies. The director of this center, seasoned diplomat James Rubin, says that often, an African, Asian or Latin American journalist reads information based on the Chinese world view, where most things are reported accurately, but when it comes to for the United States, all the bad news is highlighted, while for China, only the good news.

"This is a distorted view of reality. For us, it is no problem for China and Russia to show their point of view, or for all other countries to present their point of view. It is important that the source of the news is transparent, that it is said who is behind it and that the media market is the one to decide. We at the Center for Global Engagement strive to provide evidence to countries around the world when the integrity of their information space is compromised. And when such a thing happens we criticize the Russians or the Chinese publicly. China spends billions of dollars on these projects. We are, perhaps, a little behind in this aspect, seeing the approach that they have provided in the rest of the world," he says.

One of the regions where the efforts of the United States are concentrated in the fight against disinformation is the Balkan region, often the object of Russian disinformation. Washington has signed a memorandum of understanding with North Macedonia to cooperate in this direction. Mr. Rubin says that the signing of this document ensures the commitment of this country to address this problem, with the same urgency that the United States addresses it.

"Just as territorial integrity is important, information integrity is also important. What we discovered is that because RT and Sputnik media are still broadcasting in Serbia, this is being used to divide North Macedonia. It is up to us to work with the government of North Macedonia to give them the capacity to guarantee integrity in the information space and to tell them when Russia is operating behind the scenes, interfering with their information space. Let's try to give them tools to analyze this 'poisoning' of their information space. So this means sharing best practices for free media, fact-checking, and building regenerative skills."

Montenegro has also frequently raised the alarm about disinformation campaigns. The country is facing early parliamentary elections that will be held this Sunday, June 11. Mr. Rubin says that so far there is no information about attempts by foreign actors to interfere in the election process.

"What I know is that Montenegro had a political relationship with Serbia. Serbia is the only country in the Balkans where 'RT' and 'Sputnik' still broadcast. Serbia also has Serbian-language versions of RT and Sputnik. So if you live in Montenegro, you can read Russian disinformation in Serbian, coming from Serbia. So in itself more of a challenge related to foreign interference in elections, it is a challenge to make it possible for 'RT' and 'Sputnik' not to be able to cause so much damage inside Montenegro or Macedonia North".

Mr. Rubin spoke about the need to create a kind of coalition against the violation of the information space. He said that the United States plans to help other countries, such as Bulgaria and Slovakia, to have available analytical tools to investigate information space violations, as he said, the weaknesses of a country can affect other places.

Interview with American diplomat James Rubin

VOA: During a Senate hearing (May 16), Secretary Blinken told Senator Murphy that the Global Engagement Center is working with the China Affairs Unit at the State Department to counter the misinformation coming from this place. Secretary Blinken also said that the United States is making available to other countries agencies such as the Associated Press, Reuters, and other "objective sources of information." Can you give us more details on this?

James Rubin:Information manipulation is a major problem for the United States. It's a problem all over the world. We have found that in some cases, China offers its news service for free to some media outlets on the condition that they do not use any other news service if they get the Chinese service for free. We are trying to counter exactly that, where it happens. Because the problem is that often, an African journalist, an Asian journalist, or a journalist in Latin America, reads information that is built on the Chinese world view, in which most things are reported accurately, but when it comes to the United States , all bad news is highlighted. When it comes to China, only good news. This is a distorted view of the world. For us, it is no problem for China to show its point of view, for Russia to show its point of view, or for all countries to present their point of view. It is important for the news source to be transparent, to say who is behind it and for the media market to decide. The problem is when Chinese support is not transparent, when it happens behind the scenes. And we at the Center for Global Engagement strive to provide evidence to countries around the world when the integrity of their information space is compromised. Just as the territorial integrity should not be violated, the integrity of the information space should not be violated either. And when that happens, we criticize the Russians or the Chinese, publicly. China spends billions of dollars on these projects. We are,

VOA: The United States has also signed a memorandum of understanding with North Macedonia to cooperate in the fight against disinformation, or "information manipulation." What is the United States trying to achieve? Are there similar agreements like this with other countries?

James Rubin:We started with North Macedonia, as it became clear that they are concerned that their information space is being violated. Just as territorial integrity is important, information integrity is also important. And what we discovered is that because 'RT' and 'Sputnik' still existed in Serbia, it was being used to divide North Macedonia. So what we did is agree on a Memorandum of Understanding with the government of North Macedonia. And what these memorandums do is ensure the willingness of another country to address a problem with the same urgency that we address it. It is not a solution to the problem, it is a demonstration of will. But it is up to us to work with the government of North Macedonia to given them the capacity to guarantee this integrity of the information space, to try to show when Russia is operating behind the scenes, interfering with their information space. Let's try to give them tools to analyze this 'poisoning' of their information space. So that means sharing best practices for free media, fact-checking, and building regenerative skills. Our partners in North Macedonia or in other countries such as Bulgaria and Slovakia have all told us that they recognize this as a very big problem that they are facing. What we want to do is work with them to make sure that when Russia or China, or any other country, interferes in the information space, it's transparent, the source is known, to make visible to these countries who is behind the scenes. It is not wrong for countries to present their point of view, but it should no longer be hidden. It should be something transparent.

Voice of America: Will there be similar agreements with other Balkan countries?

James Rubin:We do not have a plan to sign memorandums with other countries, but we have the same goal planned with other countries. In my meetings with the authorities in Bulgaria and Slovakia, they expressed interest in working with us, to build capabilities similar to those we have in the Center for Global Engagement. We develop analytical tools to investigate information space breaches, and we want other countries to have similar tools. So we will give them technical assistance, we will provide them with support, so that we all have a common operational view. We don't want one country to be weaker than others when it comes to the information space. Because in the modern era, when a country's information space is compromised, it can affect other countries as well.

Voice of America: In April, you visited Montenegro and warned at that time about the big problem this country is facing with regards to disinformation. Montenegro will have early parliamentary elections this Sunday, June 11. Do you see any indication or evidence that foreign actors are trying to interfere in the internal politics of Montenegro?

James Rubin: I currently have no information. What I know is that Montenegro has had a political relationship with Serbia. Serbia is the only country in the Balkans where 'RT' and 'Sputnik' still broadcast. Serbia also has Serbian-language versions of RT and Sputnik. So if you live in Montenegro, you can read Russian disinformation in Serbian, coming from Serbia. So in itself more of a challenge related to outside interference in elections, it is a challenge to make it possible for 'RT' and 'Sputnik' not to be able to cause so much damage inside Mali. Black or North Macedonia.

VOA: China has been accused of meddling in Canadian elections. As the United States heads into the presidential election, how concerned are you and how closely is the Center for Global Engagement monitoring foreign disinformation campaigns, attempts to interfere in American domestic politics?

James Rubin: Actually the mandate of the Center for Global Engagement extends abroad. It's the Department of Justice, the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security, it's their job to make sure there's no outside interference in our elections. The Center for Global Engagement is tasked with trying to combat disinformation and manipulation of information in Africa, Asia, Europe, Latin America. It is the internal structures to deal with the American elections. But I'm always worried when foreigners try to interfere in elections, wherever that happens.

VOA: Senior US officials have said the State Department has held hearings on artificial intelligence and is discussing its inclusion in US foreign policy. Is the Center for Global Engagement Using Artificial Intelligence to Fight Foreign Disinformation?

James Rubin:Not at the moment, we have not used artificial intelligence tools. Artificial intelligence is as much an opportunity as it is a problem. Every new technology has great advantages and sometimes disadvantages. We realized this with social media, or the digital revolution. In the case of artificial intelligence, what worries me is when other countries that spread disinformation and lies, use information manipulation, use artificial intelligence to translate into a hundred languages ??at once. This is something that normally takes hundreds and hundreds of people to do. It is very difficult to do. It requires cultural adaptation. It is possible that our adversaries are using these tools to make translations in multiple languages ??and instantly. This can be a problem. the best way to deal with artificial intelligence is to work with our European allies to create tools that do the verification in place and to make companies, voluntarily, show that the use of artificial intelligence can be done in a proven way and on that Secretary Blinken and other people are working on this. What worries us is when artificial intelligence is used, covertly, behind the scenes, with the aim of reporting false events around the world.

VOA: So can we say that your center has for now ruled out using artificial intelligence to counter disinformation?

James Rubin: I haven't seen it used in the work I do. I don't think it will help me do my job, because my job is to find out what's behind the scenes. I'm sure there are people in the State Department and in the government who will benefit from this technology.

VOA: Will the Center for Global Engagement issue an annual report this year?

James Rubin: We report regularly to Congress. We recently released a report on the Black Sea Grain Initiative, in which Russia has tried to mislead the world about the causes that created the food crisis. Russia has curbed grain, raised prices and tried to make money from it. It has blocked ships sailing in the Black Sea and caused food prices to rise for profit. We have criticized such a thing in the report.

VOA: One last question Mr. Prigozhin, head of the Russian mercenary group 'Wagner', has openly criticized senior Russian leaders. Do you see this as a sign that Russian President Putin's ability to control information has weakened?

James Rubin: What I can say about Mr. Prigozhin is that sometimes he tells the truth, but there are times when he exaggerates things. I think that what his attitude reflects is the difficulty that Russia has had in achieving its objectives. Russia has failed to achieve its objectives in Ukraine. This becomes more evident every day and they all criticize each other because they have not achieved their objectives./ VOA